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Early-Stage Founder 23: Christoph Engelhardt on Doubling Your MRR with Email Marketing

Christoph Engelhardt on Doubling Your MRR with Email Marketing

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Today, on the Early-Stage Founder Show, I’m doing something a little bit different as I gear up for MicroConf in April.

MicroConf was started by Rob Walling and Mike Taber and is an amazing conference for self-funded software companies that I look forward to every year because the community is great and the talks are invaluable.

So what I’m going to do is release 2 episodes a week for the 4 weeks leading up to MicroConf and these episodes will be focused on self-funded, often solo-founders. Some are on the smaller side, while others have ARRs approaching 7-figures, but they all have valuable lessons to share for any founder.

If you already have a team or have raised money, don’t skip these weeks. To succeed as a self-funded startup, you need to be hyper focused and these guests share the tactics that have allowed them to build a business with limited resources.

If you are just starting out, then these guests will help give you a plan of action so you can avoid some of the same mistakes they made.

Regardless of where you’re at with your startup, I know you’ll get actionable lessons out of these next 8 episodes.

For the first interview in the self-funded series, I’m talking with Christoph Engelhardt, the founder of LinksSpy and Author of the SaaS Email Marketing Handbook. Today he shares why email marketing is such a powerful channel for SaaS startups and lays out simple but effective strategies you can implement in your startup today.

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Resources mentioned:

The UI Audit by Jane Portman
Tiny Marketing Wins by Justin Jackson
The Single Founder Handbook by Mike Taber
SaaS Email Marketing Handbook by Christoph Engelhardt

Where to learn more:

To enter for a chance to win the Online Business Starter Kit, including the four resources listed above, just head to the giveaway page and submit your free entry before 8:00 am Eastern on March 22nd.

Transcript:


Andy:
Christoph, thanks so much for joining me today.


Christoph:
Thanks for having me Andy.


Andy:
Let's just start with how did you begin your entrepreneurial journey?


Christoph:
That's quite interesting, I think. I started, mainly, because my current employer, which happens to be at the German military told me that although I'm on a 15 year contract, they won't keep me on as a career soldier after those 15 years. That was, what like four or five years ago, approximately. Yeah. I think five years ago. They told me that I'll have to stay in the army until 2022 but they won't make take me as a career officer.


Andy:
Interesting so when you hear that, when you find that out, do you just immediately say, "All right I need to start a business on my own?" Because a lot of people in that position would just be like, " All right that just means I need to find a different job afterwards."


Christoph:
Well, I don't know. First thing that happened was that I was mildly depressed because I always wanted to be a career soldier, career officer. This was purely because back then, they had an age restriction and I would be too old to become a career officer. Now they've lifted this restriction. So, I can now become a career officer which is cool. I think I always had a freelancing agency or development. I was doing freelancing work ever since … For the past 15 years or so. I figured, well I have to build something. I have to find a smooth transition when I leave the military, and I figured that after being in charge of 40-200 people I would have a hard time just being the electrical engineer and being bossed around by others. Not bossing around others. I said to myself, "Yeah, let's build a product. Let's do something."


Andy:
What was that first product that you built?


Christoph:
The first product I built was a blatant rip off of Patrick Mackenzie's appointment reminder. Both because I thought it was a great idea. I think it's an incredibly smart business idea. And I admire Patrick and I wanted to learn developing in Rails, a Ruby On Rails. It kind of started out as a project to learn Ruby on Rails because it's just cool to call telephone numbers from your web prose, or your own application. That was really cool. Then I said, "Yeah, turn it in to a product. Turn it into appointment reminder but focus on the German market." Because I thought that Patrick is never going to go after the German market, which he never did.


Andy:
So it was a safe assumption.


Christoph:
Yeah. I think so. What I didn't figure out back then was that I didn't have an easy way to charge credit cards because Stripe wasn't available in Germany back then. There was a competitor. They were themselves a rip off of Stripe, but their set up process was so agonizing that I stopped half way through. The other thing I didn't realize was that people in Germany are much more reluctant to pay for something on a monthly basis. I think it's just that Germany is probably five years behind the US in adopting new technologies and new mind sets. That's what was in the way of me making this into a profitable business. That and a lack of marketing experience on my part.


Andy:
Do people typically want to … Would they prefer to buy it just as a one time payment or what is the preferred way of paying at least at that point when you had launched?


Christoph:
The preferred way would be to pay one time. Then there are all the privacy issues, like data privacy issues that are … The rules seem to be a lot stricter in the European Union and in Germany especially.


Andy:
Right, whereas the US doesn't seem to be as much regulation over that … It's a very simple kind of checklist of do these things and you're good. Whereas in the EU it seems like it's a much more thorough approach as to how you protect your customer's data and all of that.


Christoph:
I think in general, the people in Europe or in Germany are a lot more afraid of giving their data to a corporation. Whereas the people in the US seem to be a lot more afraid of giving their data to the government. I personally think that the US is way smarter on this one.


Andy:
So, you've launched this appointment reminder, sort of clone, for the German market. It didn't quite take off as you expected but you then, a few years after that launched another start up. Can you talk about that one?


Christoph:
Yeah, sure. The other start up is now named LinksSpy. When I started out it was LinkMailer. It originated from a kind of test I did while I working for Moss in Seattle back in 2013. The idea was basically to send a list of websites you can reach out to and ask for a link to your website, to customers.


Andy:
With that, because looking at it now, on the website, it says find link opportunities for your outreach campaign. It's clear that you've kind of refined the marketing, the message for that over time. How is that business doing today?


Christoph:
It's doing okay, especially considering I didn't put any effort into it in the last year. I probably invested less than 40 hours. It's probably more because I check emails everyday. I get tons of emails. I invested less than 40 development work into and it was just customer support. Considering that, I … It's flat lining. It isn't growing at all. I have to admit that but it's doing well.


Andy:
Is it sort of part of that long term plan to transition away from your day job as an officer in the military? How does this fit into your vision for that?


Christoph:
That's basically it. I want to build products and eventually just be self employed.


Andy:
How have you been able to grow LinksSpy to the point where it is doing well? What has been different between this and your earlier product?


Christoph:
I think there are a few things. First of all, I matured as a marketer. I'm much more comfortable with marketing itself. I got better at it for sure, that's one huge advantage I now have. I actually learned that with the first application. Then I think it was good to focus on an English speaking audience and mainly targeting the US. Because [inaudible 00:09:43] adoption rates are much higher than they are in Germany.


Andy:
I know you …


Christoph:
Andy, wait a second please. Andy, I have to get … My day job is calling. Can I just go on the telephone for a second?


Andy:
Yeah no problem.


Christoph:
Okay.


Andy:
Do you want to call me back or whatever is easiest for you is fine.


Christoph:
No I'll just mute it for now.


Andy:
Okay.


Christoph:
Okay, sorry I'm back.


Andy:
That's fine. One of the downsides of the day job is when they call you've got to answer so don't worry about it. I completely understand.


Christoph:
It's a pain in my sometimes. Where were we?


Andy:
We were talking about LinksSpy, talking about what's different about applying it to the US market was different and a benefit because the [inaudible 00:11:15] were great. What specific tactics did you use to make it a success? How did people first hear about this?


Christoph:
Do you think that's actually helping people when I tell them that I had to learn marketing? That's what I'm wondering right now.


Andy:
Okay, so why don't we just talk about …


Christoph:
No, I mean I'm totally fine admitting that I was a terrible marketer before. I'm probably not a good one right now. I just wonder if that helps anyone.


Andy:
I think maybe if we skip over that and say … Have you say I had to learn a lot of marketing from the ground up. Then we can talk about what did you learn? What have you learned about email marketing that has helped your business and has helped other businesses succeed? Do you think that is a good transition?


Christoph:
Yeah. We can do that. I can also talk a bit about the content marketing I did. The things that worked for me when doing content marketing, or engineering as marketing. Totally fine with either.


Andy:
I would say probably trying to veer the talk towards the email marketing side of it. Then we'll see what else we can fit in. Let me just take a note of the time.


Christoph:
I'm sorry.


Andy:
Don't worry about it, this is good because I like the push back when it helps me to focus the episode. Like you said, you do want to make sure what we cover is valuable.


You said before you had to learn a lot of marketing, sort of from the ground up to make LinksSpy work, to build it into a business. One of the areas of expertise you really did start developing over your time building this up was with email marketing. Why was email marketing so effective? Why is it such a powerful tool for SaaS start ups?


Christoph:
I think the first thing for me was that others told me to use email marketing. I've heard so many founders talk about the only regret they ever had about email marketing being that they didn't start it early enough. So that was a huge motivator for me to start early with it. I think the first thing I did right was setting up a lead nurturing trip email course, which helped me, or helped LinksSpy grow in the beginning and still does to this day.


Andy:
What was the course on?


Christoph:
Better link building. Let me check, what did I call it? I think I copied someone. I copied Rob Wallen and called it the Actionable Advance Link Building Course.


Andy:
How did that fit into the over all funnel? Why did that really help the business grow?


Christoph:
Once you have permission from someone to send them emails, you can basically send them emails for weeks, or months or year and be on top of them whenever they look for a solution to the problem you're solving.


Andy:
I think that speaks to the power of email in general is that when you're talking about content marketing, when you're talking about social media marketing, all these other forms, you're kind of hoping that your audience comes across it. When you have email, you have the direct channel to people who are in your audience. You can reach out to them whenever you want. Relatively speaking you don't have to pay much to do it.


Christoph:
I think especially with social media marketing, when I think of Twitter, it's always astonishing to me how few people actually see a tweet. Even if it's from an influential person. I had Rand Fishkin, the CEO of Moz, tweet about my content. From my Google Analytics, I could tell that maybe 10, 15, maybe 20 people clicked on that link from him. Considering he has an audience of about 200,000 or so, that's nothing. When I send out a link or an email to my list, I can guarantee you that there are way more than 20 people clicking on that link. More than 100 for sure.


Andy:
We've actually, I've seen that on this Podcast and on other Podcasts that while I love it when guests do share this socially, ultimately it doesn't usually have a big spike, a big impact on listens. Especially with Twitter, if someone's not on Twitter right when they send it out, it's going to get lost. They're not even going to see it again. Whereas with email, that's going to stay in someone's inbox. The biggest boost in traffic I have personally seen have always come from being featured in a newsletter, from being featured in some email blast. Something like that because email just is so much more direct to the people that you're trying to speak with.


Christoph:
That's completely in line with my experience.


Andy:
So you have a lot of experience in email marketing for SaaS companies, you actually wrote the book SaaS Email Marketing Handbook about how to grow your MRR through advanced email marketing techniques and the one cool thing … One of the cool things I saw in the book, when just flipping trhough it, trying to get a better feel for it was how you really approach each different piece of the funnel. You hear people talking about cold email for getting leads, you hear win back campagins, different retention efforts. You don't usually get a full funnel look at it.


What I want to focus on today in this chat is one piece of the funnel that doesn't get much discussion or at least not as much as I think it should. That's on getting a vistor to actually start a trial and eventually become a customer because no matter how great your content is, if you don't have a way to convert that visitor into a trial user, it's not going to make an impact on your business. So, you had mentioned the course you created to help do that. Can you talk a little bit about the journey from someone signing up for the email course to then eventually signing up for a trial to LinksSpy.


Christoph:
Sure. I think one of the most important aspects of such a course is that you should plan it out in advance. What you're going to write. You really have to put some thought into it. I recommend to have it between maybe 5 and 10 separate emails, each sent daily. I recommend that in the very first email, the one they get immediately after sign up, you should just blow them away with some type of, I don't know who coined the term but a value bomb. Was it Amy Hoy?


Andy:
I think it was actually or at least she's talked about it. A value bomb, you're saying instead of just trying to pitch your tool right away, kill them with information that actually has value, that blows them away. That makes them say, wow these people really know what they're talking about.


Christoph:
Exactly. At this point, when people gave you their email address, they don't know or trust you. You have to earn that trust. That's what you use the lead nurturing email campaign for. You should give yourself a good headstart by delivering a value bomb right at the beginning. For LinksSpy the first day, the first email is called "22 Websites to Get a Link from in 10 Minutes." It basically links back to a piece of content on the blog. There are a number of Q&A websites, social networks, online profiles. Not the best links in terms of what Google likes because the links are so easy to get, Google doesn't count them as highly as an editorial link on say, force of content. It's a start. You can immediately dive into it and get a few links for your website. You should have those basic links for your website. That's just a nice easy to write email to warm them up and get them to open the next email from you. On the first day, I have a 75% open rate with a 55.6 click through rate.


Andy:
That's huge.


Christoph:
I'm pretty happy with those numbers.


Andy:
We don't necessarily need to go into the specifics of every touch point after that, but talking a little higher level, what is the goal, after you've proven yourself to them and say, "Hey, you gave me your email, that is a little bit of a risk on your part, you do need some … I need to earn my trust and hopefully I've done that with this value bomb, by showing you something you can immediately take and run with." From that point, how do you start edging them towards potentially become a customer, at least starting a trial?


Christoph:
I don't even try that for the first five emails I think. I think the first time I actually mention LinksSpy in the emails is on day five. It's definitely on day five. So what I first do is to talk a bit more about the pain and possible solutions to it. I talk about why links matter for the online success of your business, what different types of links are. What they do for your business. How to get good … On day four I talk about how to get good, high quality links by analyzing your competitors. That is like the foundation for what LinksSpy does. On the fifth day, I talk about a more advanced technique to a competitive link analysis. That's the first time I mention LinksSpy, but only at the very end of the email do I mention LinksSpy. Then on day six and seven I mildly push LinksSpy.


Andy:
I think this approach to nurturing the leads in this way, a lot of it really goes back to a change in the way many people approach sales. In the world today people are constantly trying to pitch you, they're constantly trying to sell everything. The more you can educate as part of your sale process, the more likely you are to succeed because customers don't want to be sold to. They want to buy from someone they trust and who truly is an expert and can help them solve their problems. It seems like the way you've talked about setting up this lead nurturing funnel with email is a similar process, where you're trying to give them value. And you're only originally talking about your product as it relates to what you're teaching them and everything else. Then saying hey, this could help you would you want to check it out. Is that a good summary of what you're trying to accomplish?


Christoph:
Yeah, Andy, absolutely. The only thing I'd like to give you some push back on is that this isn't a new concept. I think the two worlds have been the two kind of different streams and sales have always been the ones who say … Are kind of like ABC, always be closing. The ones who always try to push for and get to close. Then the others in sales have always tried to educate their customers and then though the medium of education get the close. Even Chet Homes and the Ultimate Sales Mission, what he advocates basically is this approach of educating customers and then selling them through that.


Andy:
I think it's just really important when you're in competitive fields like SaaS is becoming, when you're in these competitive areas to find any edge you can get and truly educating as part of the sales process is one of those edges you can get.


Christoph:
Definitely. It's an easy way to tell them that you know what you're talking about.


Andy:
Ultimately that's what people are looking for. If they have ten different solutions that they can chose from, obviously there's going to be some differences, but that roughly are trying to solve the same problem, people are usually going to pick the company, the person, whoever that they trust the most. That they believe knows what they're talking about, truly is an expert in the field. If you're in B to B SaaS people aren't just trying to sign up for another tool, they're trying to solve a problem. They want to know that even if your tool can't do it right away, the person behind it, the team behind it has the expertise that they know how to solve the problem that you're trying to figure out.


Christoph:
Exactly.


Andy:
There's one other thing that you had talked about before the call that blew me away a bit because it's something that is so simple, but I really hadn't seen it talked about at all. It's what you call the sign up abandonment emails. Can you talk a little bit about that?


Christoph:
For sure. I think I'm currently trying to coin the term, "Sign up abandonment emails." It's simply [inaudible 00:27:13] emails which most people know from e-commerece stores and from Amazon and apply that same concept to just SaaS businesses. I got the idea from Rob Wallen. It's very simple. If you have a two step sign up process, on the first step you ask your future user for their email address and a password, that's what most SaaSF businesses do, and then on the second step a lot of SaaSFs ask for the credit card details. Especially if you're a small SaaS and you're just starting out it's best that you just ask for the credit card details. You get a much higher try it to pay conversion rate at the end. Also you lose out on some sign ups. What I'm realizing, what Rob realized before me is that roughly 60% of people will just close their browser tab on the second step. They won't continue.


Andy:
Really?


Christoph:
Yeah it's something like that. Roughly 60%. I've interviewed probably a dozen or more SaaS founders and they all say yeah, about 60% never follow through. The beauty is at this point you have their email address, right? So you can just nudge them and tell them hey don't you want … You started to sign up, you seemed to be interested in the solution we are providing to the problem you are experiencing. For you to do so, we really do need the credit card. Would you like to continue your sign up process? And it's awfully simple but still really effective. On average I've seen an increase in visit and try it conversion rates or about 15% which is a nice difference for most businesses.


Andy:
That's noticeable, that's not a small difference. That can really ramp things up especially if you are smaller and really need every trial that's coming through the door. I'm looking at the article, you wrote an article about this that goes into much more detail. I'll make sure to get that linked up in the show notes. It's so simple. If you do any shopping online at all, I'm sure you've had the email where you were shopping for something, you weren't really sure if you wanted it. You left it in your cart and left. An hour later you get an email saying hey, about that shirt you were looking at, did you forget about this? Why don't we … Sometimes they'll give you a free shipping offer, whatever , but they reach back out trying to get you to buy. This is a pretty similar process.


If someone gives you the email on that first screen and you do ask for the credit card on the second screen, you have all you need to reach out to them if they leave. Do you recommend, in the actual email you send at this point, what are you saying? Are you trying to reassure them why you asked for the credit card? Are you trying to over come those objections or how do you actually structure that email?


Christoph:
The one I currently have for this, is really simple. You started a registration for this two days ago but got stuck half way … Oh wait, no, that's the wrong one. Wait a second, I was looking at the wrong.


Andy:
No problem.


Christoph:
I have two now.


So the one I currently use for LinksSpy is pretty simple. It's just, "Hi, you started the registration a few hours but stopped before finishing it. Was there a problem? Is there anything I can help you with? You can continue the registration at … And then there's the link." So it's really simple. It's plain text. Nothing fancy and it's good enough to work. Rob on the other hand with Drip has a more sophisticated one where he actually tells them that he needs the credit card up front because it's just important for the way he runs the business and to assure a smooth transition once the trial is over. Then he has another one which is sent a few weeks later where he actually tells people they were checking out a few weeks ago and if they're interested in trying Drip, without entering a credit card first there's a special way to sign up for that.


Andy:
That's really smart.


Christoph:
He even tries to capture those who are totally objecting to giving away their credit card details before entering the trial.


Andy:
That's really smart because I personally don't suggest for most business to ask for a credit card up front. I think that it can mess up your numbers because while you might have a higher trial conversion rate you'll probably have a lot of cancels in the first two months from people who forgot about it or whatever the reason. Ultimately if you have a highly converting trial funnel, you want as many people in there as you can get and the credit card just offers a wall for that. I see both sides, but that's where I stand. I see for a business, especially like Rob's at Drip, with email marketing there's a high potential for abuse from spammers, from whatever. So having some wall up there makes sense because you don't want somebody to just be able to spin up an account, shoot out a bunch of spam emails and then open up new one right after that.


Having some credit card in place for some business makes sense, but I like that he takes it that extra step and says if they still haven't signed up with a credit card, I'm going to follow up a week later and say all right, sign up here, no credit card, we'll also help get you set up. We'll get you a five day mini course, no charge. This is for the eCommerce merchant who sends the coupon code if you still don't buy after a week or so. They're not going to give you the offer right away because they're trying to nudge you in a direction, but if you still haven't acted, they're going to try to sweeten the deal a little bit to overcome some of those objections. This is really smart, very simple. Christoph has an example of the work flow that is within Drip to actually send this out. This is something that just about anybody can get set up as long as you have the right tracking. This is a big win you probably aren't doing if you're listening but you probably really should consider this.


Christoph:
It's often less than two hours work to actually implement that and just consider that you're going to run your business for years to come and a 15% lift in your conversion rate is going to have a tremendous effect on your bottom line.


Andy:
For sure. The more trials that you're getting in, if you're doing any paid advertising, the higher your conversion rate is, the more you can spend on those ads and still turn a profit. It makes everything so much easier when you're able to convert just a little bit better. A 15% bump on average is pretty significant. Honestly your book is filled with dozens more examples throughout every stage of the funnel so I wish we had time to talk about each of those stages, but I'm glad we were able to focus on this one stage and talk about two really actionable examples that SaaS founders can implement. For people who do want to learn more about some of these strategies, I know you have a book. Can you speak a little bit about what is in the book and how that can help SaaS founders out there?


Christoph:
Sure, The SaaS Email Marketing Handbook as it is called is … I'm trying to write in a really actionable way to give you a really actionable tips you can implement in your SaaS and it tries to … It gives you a bunch of ideas for increasing your conversion rates, for improving your retention rates throughout the whole life cycle of a SaaS customer. It starts at the very beginning with cold outreach emails and then it goes on to increasing the visitor to trial conversion rates. On boarding your users, then once they are happy and paying customers, ways to keep them happy and engaged with your application. In the last part of the book, I'm also talking about ways you can retain customers after they have canceled. There's this …


Andy:
What are you trying to … I can try to help you if you can describe a little bit of what you're trying to get out.


Christoph:
I think I'll be fine if I just give myself ten seconds.


For example, a lot, not a lot … So sometimes people will actually love your SaaS product and the value you offer and whatever problem you're solving for them is a real pain for them and they want it solved but they are just too busy working in their business, staying on top of things that they don't have time to invest in your business. And in learning the ropes of your application. They will cancel because why would they pay for something that they don't have time to learn? Here's one thing you can try, you can try to offer them that you will use your own application for them. So in the case of LinksSpy, people want to have more links, they want to rank higher in Google. They want additional traffic, but do they want to learn all about competitive link analysis, which is a boring work to start with. Do they want to get their hands dirty reaching out to other websites and asking for links? No they don't. Often they don't so they would sign up, take a look around and cancel.


What we do for them is try to sell them on a done for you plan where we actually use the application, we use LinksSpy to find outreach opportunities for them. Then we do the manual outreach for them at a much higher ticket price than just the monthly SaaS subscription.


Andy:
I think that makes a ton of sense because it's something where … Like you touched on. They're coming to you with a business problem. They also have to run their business. They're not always going to have enough time to figure out your product, figure out how to apply it their situation and do all that. Just because they cancel doesn't mean that they no longer have that problem. In fact, they probably still have that problem and are probably pissed about it now because it still hasn't been fixed. So offering them an easy way, we can say "Hey I know you don't have the time for this, let us help you."


That is brilliant and I think a lot of, especially early stage start ups, who really are just trying to get their MRR up are trying to get money in the door should consider offering some of these higher priced service options to help supplement the product income because frankly for some of your customers no matter what you do, no matter how sophisticated your marketing is, how good your on boarding is, they just aren't going to have the time to deal with it. And would just rather pay you to do it for them. This is a great way to bring that up, to pitch it to them and get some customers back in.


Having said that, I think we gave our listeners a ton to try to decompress. To try to apply to their business. I strongly recommend checking out the book so that you can get even more examples. Like Christoph said it really is an actionable guide and you're going to have a lot that you can go back and apply into your business.


Christoph before we do wrap up, I like to ask everyone a few rapid fire questions, so I'll go through them quickly but you don't need to respond in like a second or anything like that. What we'll do is, the first one is just what do you currently spend too much time doing?


Christoph:
Playing AI War Fleet Command.


Andy:
Is this just a game?


Christoph:
Yeah that's just a game on Steam. It's a real time strategy game, it's incredibly hard. I think I started three times. Like started over three times. I started three times even with the AI opponent on the lowest, not the lowest but pretty low settings because I messed up. That's what I currently spend too much time on.


Andy:
I'll make sure not to link that on the shows because I don't want anyone else to get sucked into it, but if you are curious you can go check it out on Steam.


So the next question then is what do you not spend enough time doing?


Christoph:
Marketing. You're never spending enough time on marketing.


Andy:
That being said, what are you hoping to accomplish in the next three months with LinksSpy?


Christoph:
I do have a few future ideas that I want to kind of shift LinksSpy a bit more into the direction of an outreach tool with a built in search for outreach opportunities. I want to change the emphasis on LinksSpy. That's about it.


Andy:
What do you see as being a potential obstacle in the way to you getting there.


Christoph:
The day job.


Andy:
So that'll be for the next five years or so, that'll be the obstacle?


Christoph:
Andy, I can't talk about that. Especially with the time frame of three months. It's for personal security reasons. I can't talk about that okay?


Andy:
No problem, I'll edit that out. Wasn't trying to …


Christoph:
It's okay, you can't know but …


Andy:
Yeah, no problem. Christoph, before we do part ways, you mentioned the book, but I know right now you are also doing a giveaway with a few other authors. Can you talk about what that is?


Christoph:
Sure. So, the giveaway is with Mike Taber who wrote the Single Founder Handbook, Jane Portmant who wrote the UI Audit and Justin Jackson who is famous for a ton of different things, for example for trying to create a hundred products in 2016, the product people club and his latest the book Marketing for Developers. The latest course is also included in the giveaway is Tiny Marketing Wins. Each of us is giving away their book/course. You can sign up for a chance to win. There'll be five winners. The URL is giveaway.saasemailmarketing.net.


Andy:
I'll make sure to get that linked up in the show notes. Just so listeners know the giveaway ends on the 22nd of March at, I'm doing the math in my head, I believe 7 am Eastern or 12 o'clock UTC. You can yell at me if I got the conversion wrong, but that's the information. Definitely check that out. There's some great material in there and again I'll get that linked up in the show notes. Christoph I just want to say thank you so much for coming on the show today. It was a lot of fun chatting and if listeners want to follow you, rather than check out the books and all that. I hope they do both, but where can they go to stay on top of what you're up to?


Christoph:
The best place is probably the website at sasemailmarketing.net or you can follow me on Twitter @ITengelhardt which is terribly hard to write correctly.


Andy:
I will link it up for everybody and Christoph, again, thank you so much for coming on today. It was a lot of fun chatting.


Christoph:
Thanks a lot Andy.